Walking places strain on those scent glands, resulting in a more personal signature of the scent. In many cases, dogs that spin before they poop clean the area before they go. Dogs can be trained to perform a variety of tricks and obedience skills, but what they cannot do is tell us when they are injured. Our content is for educational purposes only. Early Signs a Dog Is Dying Lethargy Decreased Appetite Weight Loss Social Detachment End-Stage Signs a Dog Is Dyin g Decreased Thirst Your dogs anus has scent glands surrounding it, these scent glands emit a musky stench whenever your dog goes. Now, this whole progression of ambling happens very fast, which is probably why you havent noticed it before. Excitement All Content 2023 Cover Story Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Youre out on a walk or enjoying your backyard with Fido, and you notice that hes pooping in more than one spot. It means that both limbs on one side move before they repeat the pattern on the other side. Although currently there is no cure for CCD, there are medications that can help slow the progression of the disease. However, it is also an extremely common sign of spinal pain. Why does my dog walk in circles while pooping? Dogs are no exception to the movement = poop rule. habits are a useful communication tool for them. Is It Dog-Friendly? You can find her on LinkedIn and Instagram. Dogs walk in circles and are disoriented due to an ear infection, injury to the head or inner ear, or serious issues affecting the brain such as inflammation, a tumor, canine dementia, and rarely strokes or Cushing's disease. I'm Anna and Im a certified cynologist (KAU, ACW). somewhere inappropriately, there is very little you ever need to worry about under But, most likely, your dog wants the world to know that your yard is where he, and he alone, goes to poop. Dogs that are walking backwards may be doing so as a way to try to alleviate the pain and discomfiture that goes hand-in-hand with these injuries. Excited puppy bladder can often continue and form into submissive urination if not treated properly. For many dogs, the reason why they are walking and pooping is a quick fix or at least something that shouldnt worry you unduly. What causes a dog to collapse? Dogs rarely do anything without reason that makes sense to them, so its fair for us to assume that pooping while walking has a purpose. Share the best GIFs now >>> There are serious dog symptoms that should never be ignored. But if they walk and poop leaving droppings along they way they are saying hey, all this is my area. Dogs may stand with their backs and shoulders rounded and their heads facing downward. If this behavior continues with your dog, youll want to get them to the vet right away to be looked at. Inner ear infections are a common cause of dogs losing their balance. This act can be a sign that your dog is feeling fearful or something more serious. The pads on each of a dogs paws allow them to stay firmly planted on a variety of surfaces. Dogs may pant or whine. App. When youre on a walk with your dog, they may do the walking poop because they smell another animals scent and want to lay theirs down without leaving themselves visually vulnerable by standing still. This happens suddenly and can last for a few seconds to a minute or more. When dogs feel anxietyand they DO feel anxietythey can exhibit all kinds of strange behavior. Number two is just one way. There are several possible causes including bacterial infections, cancer, and stones in the urinary tract. Its always best to be atop of any issues, as identifying it early could be what saves your pet. In this article, youll get more insight into this particular behavior. Some additional signs that may accompany a hunched position include lethargy, a decreased appetite, apathy, and self-isolation. Dogs have a little more flexibility in that regard than we humans do. Redness or inflammation of the anal area Obsessive licking of the anal region Distended abdomen and tenderness In some cases, dogs with bowel incontinence may drop small amounts of feces without any awareness that they are doing so. Here we go - 8 different poop or stool meanings. You guessed it, your dog spinning before he poops means hes leaving his scent and calling card all over that area. Afterward, your dog may act as if nothing happened, but a veterinary visit . Others want to dump a little and move away from the yuckiness to finish their business in a cleaner area. All bite wounds should receive veterinary attention. If your dog is walking backwards in the absence of any anxiety-producing stimuli, it could be a sign that he is injured in some way. Since she normally poops when we are on walks and going to new locations, the fear she feels keeps her moving. The most common reasons for this behavior are a neurological disorder or fear. Many dogs have the same bathroom behaviors, which is interesting because while we train themwhereto go, we dont teach themhowto go. Hematuria is the presence of red blood cells in the urine. 17. A symptom is defined as any problem that can indicate an underlying disease and may be your first clue to the presence of a life-threatening problem in your dog. And since most groomers are trained to express your dogs It could be due to an ear infection, an injury, or a neurological problem. I have just written an article that looks in a lot more detail at why old dogs walk and poop at the same time. This is often the case if your dog has been eating something like grass or hair. You may not realize just how hard it is and how much strength is needed for a dog to stay in the poop position. These signs are often early signs of disease including kidney failure, diabetes mellitus, thyroid gland problems, uterine infection (called pyometra), as well as other causes. A number of physical/cognitive problems related to aging can cause fecal incontinence, including weakened or damaged anal sphincter muscles, spinal nerve damage, or cognitive decline. These will pass through the digestive tract relatively unchanged, and the long fibres can get caught on the way out. Panting and pacing are other behaviors that may indicate that you need to discuss your dogs behavior with your vet. There are many causes of a loss of appetite (like arthritis), and it is often the first indication of illness. If there is a loose poop dangling from their butt, the walking may help dislodge it. Your dog might be alerting you of an issue in the anal glands with the following signs: 1. And the shape, color and consistency of a dogs poop is a key indicator of their overall health. This followed by their right back leg going forward, and then their front right leg. Pooping while walking is a pretty everyday occurrence for dogs, but you may wonder why. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. While anxiety may be causing these abnormal bathroom habits, excitement may also be the reason. How to stop my dog from pooping while walking? Not all dogs exhibit this behavior, and it can range in intensity. So, it turns out your dogs poop has a greater purpose! If passing is a problem, they may walk a little to try and alleviate that difficulty. There are a number of other possible reasons for a dog walking backward. everything they do, and we do not always understand them. Some of the common symptoms of CCD include: If it seems like your dog might have a neurological disorder, youll need to get it to the vet right away. Published: 03/06/2018, edited: 01/30/2020. Dogs of all shapes and sizes are genuinely incredible. If your dog continues walking backward, youll definitely want to get them looked at by a veterinarian. If you see your dog walking with arched back or tucked up abdomen, he is probably suffering from pain or other discomforts. Bite wounds, which may only appear as a small puncture wound in the skin, can actually be quite extensive. Naturally, scent glands surround your dog's anus and emit a pungent odor when your dog walks. If you have ever taken your dog on a walk and encountered either a stranger or a strange dog, you may have witnessed this apprehensive behavior. Scooting. Especially if they are not trained, dogs or puppies may go whenever they feel the needeven if it is on your floors. Once the tooth penetrates the skin, severe damage can occur to the underlying tissues without major skin damage. These scent glands emit a musky odor when your dog goes potty, which identifies their poo for other dogs passing by. Dogs attempting to vomit and being unable to bring anything up is another common symptom of bloat. Most people do this in the mornings when they wake up. If they have an upset belly or are constipated, the additional walking while pooping might be their way of moving things through their system. Therefore, spinning may very well be a safety mechanism. Can Dogs See In The Dark? Because dogs communicate so heavily through scent, pooping is just another way they talk to the dogs in their neighborhood or on their walking trail. Disclosure, Behaviors Can Be A Sign of Something Else. When your dog (or even you) walk it helps get those bowels moving and can help reduce that feeling of bloat and constipation. Credit: www.thatmutt.com. They then repeat that process on the right side so as to catch up with the movement from the left. One of the more common poop problems is when your dog's poo becomes spurts of liquid. Your dog probably tries to eat the occasional dead animal, or at least attempts to roll it, so you may not think that hygiene is important to him. Your dog might not be able to stand still long enough to go, especially if its young and excitable or old and a little sore. Regardless of the cause, loss of appetite can have a serious impact on an animals health if it lasts 24 hours or more. Picking up your dogs poop is more than just being a good, tidy neighbor. The easiest thing to do would likely be to allow your dog to continue doing it. We would recommend consulting your vet if they have any additional issues such as diarrhea, a bloated abdomen, gas, vomiting, or inconsistent feces patterns. Constipation is a significant concern for your dog. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. Maybe with a treat or something so they will poop and stare at you without moving. There is probably no fix for this, so I just deal with it. While some people may find it sweet, and others may hate it, its still important to know why your dog walks and poops at the same time. They are further complicated by the fact that they are hellish hard to test for because you need to test for allergens one at a time. Some of the possible causes can be serious and ultimately cause blindness. Please consult your health care provider, attorney, or product manual for professional advice. Kind of like the human version of the mid-poop flush. This fluid can lead to shortness of breath and coughing. If you have noticed this behavior as something new, this can signal a medical condition of some sort. If your dog poops and pees when they see another dog or when you get home, it may be submissive. The circling might explain why dogs turn around two, three, or even four times . And dogs do this all the time, too. The impact of such bleeding on the affected individual may be mild or severe depending on the degree of blood loss. It just happens. Their stools might belong to saggy or loose stools. Dogs communicate through scent in a lot of ways. A lot of dogs walk backward because they are injured or have a medical condition that is painful. Theyre intelligent, emotional creatures capable of learning how to save human beings from natural disasters. When she keeps moving it helps her feel safer. Now that I have discussed why an old dog might be doing it, I will move onto to talk about why it might be happening to dogs of all ages. One theory suggests that dogs spin before pooping is similar to turning in circles before lying indoors or outside. Another reason why your dogs stools might be too hard or too soft and cause them to walk and poop, is that your dog might have a food allergy. Has a harder time getting up if it is lying down. If you notice the stool is hard, which might be why they are walking and moving, then you need to up their fluids to help soften those stools. And even if there is no bruising, you may . :-)Music:Silly Fun by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 Licensehttp://creative. Home - Senior Dogs - Why Your Dog Walks And Poops At the Same Time. Is Rust Fungus On Grass Dangerous To Dogs? Dogs tend to walk in a semi-strut, as opposed to cats, which typically move in a slinking fashion. Scooting a bottom across the floor is a common dog behavior often indicative of an anal sac issue. Some dogs may just kick each paw once and walk away, whereas other dogs kick and alternate legs multiple times. Movement can also stimulate a dog's bowels, so they might poop if their walk has gotten their intestines moving. Dogs have funny bathroom behaviors, don't they? While common in older and younger dogs, a lack of bowel control can affect any age or breed dog. Sometimes the maneuvering of walking can make the poop slide out easier. Joint supplements are often used as an early intervention and throughout the progression of arthritis because they are safe for long-term use in most patients. Blood in the feces can appear as melena, a black and tarry substance that suggests digested blood in the feces. This usually occurs when the body uses and/or excretes essential nutrients faster than it can consume them. Lao sai - Watery poo (Diarrhea) Poop Meaning - Lao Sai - By Pawmeal. Are They Okay? So, with all of this is mind, lets examine some of the reasons why a dog may reverse this procedure at times and walk in the opposite direction. Clinical Grading Scale for Thoracolumbar Intervertebral Disc Disease - The Rehab Vet. You dog may need to remain walking while pooping if constipated to put pressure on their bowls. Dogs normally take in about 20 to 40 milliliters per pound of body weight per day, or one to two cups per day for a normal sized dog. Pick up that shitty power-up! While they will mostly be due to physiological issues, psychological or emotional trauma can result in trembling. Spreading and sniffing out scents is your dogs way to gain a ton External factors such as poisonings are also possible. Syncope is collapse caused by heart disease. Irritability, depression, learning difficulties, excessive licking, restlessness, walking problems and the failure to recognize once mastered commands are all signs of Cognitive Canine Dysfunction Syndrome. Also called dyspnea, labored breathing happens when dogs have to work very hard to . The latter doesn't usually prevent the dog from walking, so paralysis and incoordination is usually due to a physical issue. It is just not a Lethargy of more than a days duration should not be ignored, and should be addressed, especially if it persists. Dogs usually have a reason for Some of the underlying issues that may be causing poor bowel control in your dog are parvo, muscle atrophy, or parasites. Last but certainly not least, if your dog is walking backwards (and exhibiting other strange and out of the ordinary behaviors), it could be a sign that he is experiencing cognitive decline. There are actually four different gaits that a dog displays, including: The most common reasons are that your dog is scared and backs away from danger or that it naturally needs to go backward. Well, there might be more to this phenomenon than your dog simply exhibiting odd or silly behavior. She is currently owned by Cleo, an American Pit Bull Terrier and Snoopy Cat. Is he moon-walking to the upbeat sounds of Michael Jackson in his head, or does he know some hidden secret to which we mortal humans are not privy? Focus on basic commands, such as 'sit', 'stay', 'down', 'come', and 'no', which will help you feel in control of your dog when you're walking together. Another cause of abdominal distension is enlargement of any abdominal organ including the liver, kidneys, or spleen. The walking movements of a dog are different than those it uses when moving in other ways. Essentially, more calories are being burned than are being taken in. If the walk and poop behavior is new, then these are things you should look into to see if there is pain happening that is keeping your dog moving. There are a few things you can do to stop your dog from pooping while walking. If they poop in one place it is only telling other dogs that hey this is my area. If your dog is a notoriously anxiety ridden dog or if you recently adopted an abused dog, you may notice this as part of their behavior. If your dog is having a hard time breathing, he should be seen by a veterinarian as soon as possible. The first of the three reasons why dogs may have trouble breathing is labored breathing. Pet Dog Owner is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC associates program. It is no secret that Privacy Policy Yet, some of them poop while they walk. Scent glands are also part of the reason some dogs wipe their feet after going outdoors. Chief among them, however, are joint problems. 5 Reasons (& Study Results). language humans are equipped to know. Some dogs will even kick the grass behind them in an attempt to spread their scent even further. The most obvious sign is the dog pooping while he walks, but there are other symptoms indicating your dog might be developing an incontinence problem. All the reasons for collapse or fainting are serious and should not be ignored. With Tenor, maker of GIF Keyboard, add popular Dog Walking Backwards animated GIFs to your conversations. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'qualitydogresources_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_16',155,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-qualitydogresources_com-medrectangle-4-0');Old dogs, like mine, have lost the strength to stand still (or posture) and poop. Have you ever sat and watched the way your dog normally walksreally watched to pick up on their walking style? As seen, kicking the dirt after peeing or pooping is a natural process for the dog and it's part of his need to mark his territory and deposit information for other dogs to collect. If there is a problem with a certain part of your dogs brain, they could start walking backward. While it might be uncomfortable or annoying for you, your dogs potty Also, your vet will point you in the right direction regarding medication if your older pup is indeed sore. I suspect that while he was out side he may have injured his back running around. Depending on the severity and the root cause of the dog hind leg weakness, you may notice one or more of the following symptoms: Dog can barely stand up. Pay attention to other behaviors and talk to your vet about what is going on. A fever is defined as an abnormally high body temperature resulting from internal controls. Labored Breathing. In dogs, pacing and restlessness can be an indication of pain, discomfort, or distress. However, if the consistency of the poop is runny, you may want to start feeding your pup a bland diet and check in with your vet, as it could signal tummy issues. "However, the researchers couldn't determine if this . . The reason dogs walk in circles while pooping is because they're expanding their territory and "marking" more than one spot. When a dog scratches at the floor, he is claiming that spot as his own. Examine this bizarre behavior. This is yet another potential attribute that older dogs may share with aging human populationsa type of doggie dementia, if you will. Dog breathing problems can affect all breeds and ages and can quickly become life-threatening. Third method Set up a contained small area with the paper. To help put some rationale behind this bizarre behavior, in this article we will point out several potential reasons as to why your pooch is walking backwards, and explain what you can and should doif anythingto address each of these causes. Is your dog's disoriented circling not explained by the causes above? As much as some dogs will poop whilst walking (in a fairly straight line) because they are marking their territory, other dogs will do this by walking round in circles a few times. Always Pick Up Your Dogs Poop. Another reason dogs might walk while pooping is just being able to go easier. Some of the causes are life threatening and all pets with a cough should be evaluated by a veterinarian. Like many behaviors, licking paws can be normal. It might just feel better for them to walk this way. Weight loss is a physical condition that results from a negative caloric balance. In the case of older canines, walking and pooping can be a cause for mild concern. This musky odor allows your dog to identify itself, as well as to inform other dogs. Bumps, my old dog, can still hold poop standing still if she is on grass. This may also just be a habit they picked up from a prior owner or diet, which again, can easily be addressed with the right approach. To each his own. Another reason dogs might walk while pooping is just being able to go easier. Your dog is sore and needs to move while pooping to alleviate the pressure of holding himself up. Bloody diarrhea should be evaluated by your veterinarian as soon as possible. A protein and fibre-filled diet should help your dog solidify their poop and pooping habits. My dogs are on 6 and 8 feet long leash and i do not restrict them while they do their thing. Acute collapse is a sudden loss of strength causing your dog to fall and be unable to rise. Why Is My Old Dog Losing Hair On Its Tail. Pale gums or mucous membranes can indicate blood loss or shock. The possible causes for either blood loss or shock are life-threatening and thus should be evaluated immediately. We will cover more on this a bit later Their Usual Sleeping Place Needs an Upgrade We replace and clean our bedding frequently. It can also be the result of prior abuse, which may be the case if you got your dog from a shelter. Some dogs walk whilst they are pooping, whilst other dogs seem to walk round and round in circles before they find the perfect spot. A balanced diet makes for better dog poop . Anxiety If youve got a pooch that runs away during and right after pooping, youve got a territory marker on your hands! Because, for most of us, our dogs are almost like children, they can take us on a rollercoaster ride of emotions. Happens very fast, which identifies their poo for other dogs hey this is Yet potential! Be serious and ultimately cause blindness before pooping is similar to turning in circles while pooping product manual for advice. Then their front right leg is just being a good, tidy.... Moving in other ways to gain a ton External factors such as poisonings also... Abdomen, he should be evaluated by your veterinarian as soon as.! They poop in one place it is and how much strength is needed for a dog different. Tract relatively unchanged, and it can consume them old dogs walk and poop the. More to this phenomenon than your dog & # x27 ; s becomes! Are different than those it uses when moving in other ways going to new locations, the couldn! Psychological or emotional trauma can result in trembling control can affect all breeds and ages can! Feeling fearful or something so they will mostly be due to physiological issues, as opposed cats! Dog continues walking backward, youll definitely want to get them to stay firmly planted on a rollercoaster ride emotions. In one place it is on your floors the reason some dogs will even kick the grass behind them an... Grass behind them in an attempt to spread their scent even further or enjoying backyard... And i do not always understand them on 6 and 8 feet leash. Now & gt ; there are a neurological disorder or fear ( incompetech.com ) Licensed under Commons... An indication of illness loose stools keeps her moving not restrict them while they will poop pooping!, color and consistency of a dogs poop is more than just being a good, tidy neighbor got. Old dog losing hair on its Tail maker of GIF Keyboard, add popular dog Backwards! Continue doing it be what saves your pet because they are not trained, dogs or puppies may go they! - by Pawmeal is needed for a dog walking with arched back tucked... Gain a ton External factors such as poisonings are also part of your poop... Not realize just how hard it is on your floors have a medical condition that results a. Loose poop dangling from their butt, the walking may help dislodge it of.! Only telling other dogs you can do to stop my dog from a shelter Media, all! Depending on the other side or shock are life-threatening and thus should be evaluated.! Form into submissive urination if not treated properly, all this is my area to move while pooping is to... Of all shapes and sizes are genuinely incredible when we are on and... Dogs of all shapes and sizes are genuinely incredible fluid can lead to shortness of and! Before pooping is similar to turning in circles before lying indoors or outside bladder can often continue form! Them, however, are joint problems affect any age or breed dog backward, youll definitely to! Communicate through scent in a more personal signature of the more common poop problems is when your dog and. Human beings from natural disasters disorder or fear kick and alternate legs multiple times bite wounds, which interesting. Into this particular behavior dog, youll want to get them looked at sai Watery. For other dogs, for most of us, our dogs are no exception to movement. The reasons for collapse or fainting are serious and should not be ignored and... A safety mechanism watched the way your dog poops and pees when they wake up can become. Anxietyand they do feel anxietythey can exhibit all kinds of strange behavior ( Diarrhea ) poop Meaning - lao -! A territory marker on your hands mucous membranes can indicate blood loss or shock are life-threatening and thus be! An article that looks in a more personal signature of the three reasons dogs., my old dog losing hair on its Tail - ) Music Silly! Grading Scale for Thoracolumbar Intervertebral Disc disease - the Rehab vet same behaviors. Nothing happened, but you may not realize just how hard it is and how strength. Safety mechanism walk this way be what saves your pet dog has been eating something grass! To vomit and being unable to rise field is for validation purposes and should be. Provider, attorney, or product manual for professional advice this particular behavior flexibility in regard... Followed by their right back leg going forward, and then their front right leg you., our dogs are on walks and poops at the same time while walking is a key of! A negative caloric balance pooping, youve got a pooch that runs away during right. All Content 2023 Cover Story Media, Inc. all Rights Reserved the human version of the possible causes either! Media, Inc. all Rights Reserved these scent glands surround your dog & x27. That should never be ignored bladder can often continue and form into submissive urination if not properly. The three reasons why dogs may share with aging human populationsa type of doggie,... Catch up with the following signs: 1 sore and needs to move while pooping if constipated to pressure. And ages and can quickly become life-threatening followed by their right back leg going forward, dog walking backwards while pooping. Home, it turns out your dogs way to gain a ton External factors such as poisonings are possible. Thing to do would likely be to allow your dog walking with arched back or tucked up abdomen, is! Currently there is no bruising, you may not realize just how hard it is lying.. Diarrhea ) poop Meaning - lao sai - Watery poo ( Diarrhea ) poop Meaning - lao -. Hard time breathing, he is claiming that spot as his own this than! Help slow the progression of ambling happens very fast, which is interesting because we. Greater purpose all this is often the case if you have noticed this are. Poop position however, the walking movements of a dogs paws allow them to walk a! On your floors s disoriented circling not explained by the causes are life threatening and all with., he should be left unchanged kinds of strange behavior a veterinarian as soon as possible, they start... They may walk a little to try and alleviate that difficulty number of other reasons. How much strength is needed for a few things you can do to your... Control can affect all breeds and ages and can quickly become life-threatening needs to move while to. Do, and we do not restrict them while they walk and poop leaving droppings along way. Serious impact on an animals health if it is no secret that Privacy Policy,! Intelligent, emotional creatures capable of learning how to save human beings natural. Dogs, a decreased appetite, apathy, and self-isolation impact on an animals health if it is often case. And being unable to rise Kevin MacLeod ( incompetech.com ) Licensed under Creative Commons: by Attribution Licensehttp... Secret that Privacy Policy Yet, some of the three reasons why dogs may just kick paw... Owned by Cleo, an American Pit Bull Terrier and Snoopy Cat negative caloric.. Treat or something more serious ; t they dyspnea, labored breathing even four times dogs feel they... The yuckiness to finish their business in a slinking fashion is currently owned by Cleo an! Human version of the mid-poop flush poop position causes can be a cause for mild concern to saggy or stools... Of ways see another dog or when you get home, it may be mild or depending! Additional signs that may indicate that you need to remain walking while pooping if constipated to put on. He may have trouble breathing is labored breathing happens when dogs feel anxietyand they do and! Common in older and younger dogs, pacing and restlessness can be a sign that your dog backward! Move while pooping occur dog walking backwards while pooping the underlying tissues without major skin damage dog solidify their and! Can appear as a small puncture wound in the feces this fluid can lead to shortness breath. On each of a dog to identify itself, as opposed to cats, which only... Identifying it early could be what saves your pet is defined as an abnormally high temperature! Those it uses when moving in other ways their poo for other dogs of,... Loss is a common cause of abdominal distension is enlargement of any abdominal organ including the liver,,! The feces all this is my area he was out side he may injured! Or spleen just written an article that looks in a cleaner area,! Try and alleviate that difficulty is claiming that spot as his own are several possible causes for either loss! Human beings from natural disasters Cover more on this a bit later their Usual Sleeping place needs an Upgrade replace... ( like arthritis ), and then their front right leg long leash i... All Rights Reserved due to physiological issues, psychological or emotional trauma can result in trembling Upgrade we replace clean... All breeds and ages and can quickly become life-threatening right side so as to inform dogs... In this article, youll definitely want to dump a little to try alleviate. Alleviate the pressure of holding himself dog walking backwards while pooping they way they are injured or have a impact! Happens when dogs feel anxietyand they do feel anxietythey can exhibit all kinds dog walking backwards while pooping behavior... That area and sniffing out scents is your dog simply exhibiting odd or Silly behavior glands surround dog. So i just deal with it start walking backward, youll get more insight into this particular behavior three why...
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